File: Apologetics, the Love of God, God´s Goodness, Salvation, Hell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C8xZSyvaZA (Debate between Eddie and Greg)
Eddie, I recently listened to you in debate with Greg Bahnsen. I agree with his logical reasoning and conclusions. But, I believe his argument would have been more convincing to the audience and you, and more persuasive, if he would have addressed some of the questions you brought up. I did not agree with the picture of God you created and then easily enough demolished, the typical “straw-man” device. Nevertheless, you did a good job in that you were persuasive. But, I think your conclusions are erroneous.
I do not know why you are so aggressively atheistic. Having a father as a Rabbi could have affected you negatively against God, especially, if his treatment of you as a child or teenager growing up was harsh, cruel or hypocritical. My anger at God started when I lost my high school sweetheart to another guy. I refused to have sex before marriage, believing it was a mortal sin. She finally confessed to me that she was leaving me for someone else, whom she was already having relations with. My heart broke and I was thrown into a great depression. I was a college student at the time. Soon after my first year geology course, I ended up an atheist. I started actively trying to confront Christians with the stupidity of their faith, after all, evolution or science had proven the Bible false, or so I thought, at the time.
Anyway, Eddie, to make a long story shorter, what I found out is that God has very little to do with the present day religious system or the past religious system you seem to be attacking. In fact, much of the time, the religious system fits perfectly into the description of the scribes and Pharisees which Jesus so vehemently attacked (Matthew 23) and which ultimately cost him his life. My experience goes like this, Eddie. After having smoked some hash with a friend at college, I had a God experience, an epiphany experience that changed me from a confused, withdrawn negative depressed person into one who believed in love and just wanted to love everyone. I had been touched by "God" and had experienced an unexplainable spiritual orgasm. (I am not promoting taking drugs to find God. I am just relating my own personal search and what happened to me.)
For the next few years, I searched through different religions trying to find out which one really could lead me to this "God" I had experienced. In the end, much to my dismay, it led me to Jesus and the God of the Bible. But you know Eddie, when I read the Bible, I do not find that horrible God you describe. I find a God of love “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.” (1 John 4:7&8) I find a God of infinite mercy. “The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,…” (Exodus 34:6&7) Yet, God is also a God of justice and judgment. “… And that will by no mean clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children, unto the third and to the fourth generation ´of them that hate me.´”( Exodus 34:7 & Exodus 20:5b).
In the New Testament it says that, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man (Jesus), it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost; it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32). You can rant and rage against God, and speak against Jesus, yet God will forgive you, if you have not been witnessed to by the power of the Holy Ghost.
How I understand this principle, goes like this. At one point, God´s spirit is going to come upon you and show you that He is indeed real and that Jesus is indeed His son. If at that point, you reject His truth, then He will be justified in condemning you. Really, you will have condemned yourself. Jesus said, “And if any man hear my words, and believe them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:47&48). And James went on to say, “Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17) So God is not an unjust God and will not condemn us unjustifiably.
The New Testament even states that Jesus, when He died, went to the spirits who were imprisoned in the afterlife and preached the truth of the gospel to them. “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;…For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) Why did he bother to preach to them, if they did not have a possibility to receive it?
This seems to indicate that there could be some type of salvation after death, much to the shock of some very conservative religionists. Surely, a merciful God would not condemn souls to hell who had not had ample understanding and proof of the gospel. When we put people in prison, we do so for their crimes and with the hope that they will change. I believe "hell" is a similar place in the spiritual plane, where those who refuse to accept Christ will go, until they have learned their lessons and come to the true knowledge of God through Jesus.
The Bible even says that those who do not accept Christ, if they have not rejected the Holy Ghost, will be judged by their works, whether they were good, or whether they were evil. “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,….And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and were judged every man according to their works.” (Revelation 20:11-13).
Jesus also said that those believers who knew God´s will and did it not would be beaten or punished or suffer some period of retraining in the afterlife. “And that servant, which knew his Lord´s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” (Luke 12:47-48) They do not get off scot-free because they believed in Jesus. God is merciful, but He is also just. But God, being perfect, cannot accept us in our imperfect state. But, if we are willing to accept the truth spoken by the sacrificial Lamb of God, He will accept us and forgive our sins and faults. As we accept Jesus, God accepts us. We will not be perfect, but will continue to learn and live and love in the life to come.
I am hoping Eddie, you will get the point. God is nothing like the religious system that you are attacking and their false doctrines, inconsistencies, and hypocrisy. He loves you Eddie, and is trying to bring you to Himself. Paul was much like you and look what happened to him. He had a God experience, which he could not deny. (Acts 9:1-23). He became God´s man for the hour. Much of Christianity today is the fruit of his efforts. The Bible says, “Call upon me and I will answer you!”(Jeremiah 33:3) Eddie, if you seek for Him with all your heart, you will find Him. (Jeremiah 29:13). Have you really given Him a chance? I am not talking about religion, Eddie. Have you been so frustrated and angry with false religion and religionists that you have missed His “still small voice” to your heart telling you He loves you? (1 Kings 19:12).
Another point you make is about God casting the souls into hell unjustly. You mention the Tsunami and how so many innocent children died and then because they had never prayed the sinner´s prayer were cast into hell forever. Again, Eddie, I do not know where you are getting your doctrines from, but that harsh and cruel God you are talking about is not the God of the Bible. We are going to live for eternity with God and each man, woman and child will be given ample proof of his existence and a chance to accept Jesus as their Lord of Lords, either in this life or the life to come.
In Psalm 19, David says that the heavens declare the glory of God and the sky shows his handiwork. The heavens speak to us throughout the day and throughout the night in every land and language. (Psalm 19: 1-3) Paul goes on to say that just by looking at nature we will find God, so therefore we are without excuse. “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”(Romans 1: 20). But it is one thing to be ignorant of God´s love for us, but it is another thing to turn our back on Him and refuse to let His spirit melt and break our hearts. “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”(Romans 1:21)
Each man will give an account of his life, for good or for evil. As Paul said, “So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.” (Romans 14:12). He also wrote, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10). But not all men that talk of God will be able to come into His presence in the afterlife, because they never knew and loved God. Jesus when talking to the self-righteous religious hypocrites said, “Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devil? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.”(Matthew 7:21-23). So, it has a lot to do with the heart and motivation and not just the lip service many offer to God. Like Jesus said, “This people draw nigh unto me with their mouth, and with their lips; but their heart is far from me.”(Matthew 15:8) “For the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7b)
As far as your mother is concerned and her suffering in the Nazi concentration camps and then dying and going to hell for eternity, yes, that would seem to be too much. But God in His mercy would have given her some kind of a chance to know that Jesus was really His Son. Maybe she met Corrie Tem Boon and had the Gospel shared with her by Corrie, and found Jesus. Obviously, those that accept Jesus by faith, without the physical proof, would seem to merit more reward, than those who need the proof of a sign. The assurance that we have is the fact that God is just. God loves. Yet, God needs to correct us like a loving parent would when we do wrong willingly. “For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son which he receives.”(Hebrews12:6). If your mother did not receive sufficient witness of Christ while here on earth and she was a good person, God will judge and reward her according to her works, whether they were good, or whether they were evil. (Revelation 20:12) It seems you tend to give only black or white alternatives, when the Bible has a more comprehensive and compassionate plan.
As far as Mahatma Gandhi is concerned, God again is the judge. If Gandhi refused to accept Christ because, as he said, he had yet to find a “real Christian,” God may have indeed been merciful to him. He did try to practice the words of Jesus and acted more like a Christian than most Christians do. So, how do we know he went to hell? Jesus said, “If you continue in my word, then are you my disciple in deed.” (John 8:31). He also said, “He that has my commandments, and keeps them he it is that loves me.”(John 14:21) “If a man loves me, he will keep my words.” (John 14:23). So, if Gandhi was following the words of Jesus and obeying them, he actually loved Jesus. Again, it is not as black and white as you try to make it seem.
And who knows, he might have been a secret believer who did not openly confess Christ for fear of the political & religious reaction. The same thing happened in the days of Jesus. “Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue.” (John 12:42). And after Jesus´ death we see two other members of the Sanhedrin, “And after this Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews,…” (John 19:38) “and there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night,…” So these two top religious and political figures were quite cautious about letting their religious beliefs known, for fear of the negative repercussions.
I hope these answers have helped you to understand more clearly the love God has for you, your loved ones and for each and every man, woman and child in this great big world. He loves each one and each one is precious in His sight. He has made us in His image. “And God said, Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness:…So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”(Genesis 1:26-27) He has made us with a part of His spiritually within our hearts seeking to be reunited with the Him. “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” (Galatians 4:6) That spiritual void within our hearts is made for Him alone and cannot be filled with other loves, be they what they are. “For the flesh profits nothing.” (John 6:63) Eddie, let Him in, don´t fight against Him. There is big world out there that needs His love. He needs people like you to be His representative and to use that God given energy He has given you for good, to help and to encourage others and to change the world with love, His love. Will you hear the call? He needs you! Come on! There is still plenty of work to do.
Please watch this slideshow made for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOJeNKGEbFg Yours sincerely, Dennis Edwards
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