http://www.onbeing.org/program/science-and-hope/transcript/1158#main_content
From an interview with Dr. George Ellis
Letter from David Cristie
My conversation with George Ellis was recorded in June 2004 after he won the Templeton prize. We spoke before a live audience at WHYY in Philadelphia. Ellis also responded to questions from the audience. Speaking of Faith's founding producer, Bill Buzenberg, moderated that exchange.
BILL BUZENBERG: Why is the kenotic ethic inherent in the structure of the universe? Where does it come from?
DR. ELLIS: OK. Let me immediately say that there is no scientific proof of this kind of statement. This is a, like everything else to do with religion, this is a faith statement, and I can't prove it's right, but I can give you arguments that it's right. Where does it come from? At one level, the answer comes from the nature of God. It's what is evident for us by all the major religious traditions. And you mentioned this, but I really want to emphasize this, and Sir John Templeton has written about this. This — what just Sir John Templeton calls agape love, unconditional love. It is in all the major religious traditions.
And I, particularly, from my own experience, was talking about this in Berkeley a while ago, at the Science and Spiritual Quest. And I finished talking, and a man rushed up to me with great excitement. He's said, 'Fantastic talk. I really enjoyed that.' He says, 'You spoke like a Muslim.' Yes, he.
MS. TIPPETT: OK.
DR. ELLIS: And he was the director of the Muslim Centre in London. And I think that's really important to understand in the present day, that the true deep understanding of the Muslim faith incorporates this idea. I, in turn, in London, was at — in New York, was at the State of the World meeting, and I heard Professor Jonathan Sacks, the chief rabbi of Great Britain, talking about this. And he is an absolutely marvelous person. He talked in exactly the same kind of way. So I had fun going up to him afterwards. I said, 'Professor Sacks, you talk like a Quaker,' and he looked at me, and he said, 'I will choose to take that as a compliment.' And the evidence that it is something more than just what some people invent is the fact that it is discovered independently by all the great religious traditions.
MS. TIPPETT: So this is the nature of God, this way of being.
DR. ELLIS: Yes.
MS. TIPPETT: This kenosis, this ethic. And it's embedded in the universe as an expression of — an expression of that is embedded in the universe.
DR. ELLIS: This is why I introduced this thing about mathematics. We haven't got a clue in what way mathematics is embedded there, but it is there in some platonic space waiting to be discovered. We actually haven't got a clue how the laws of physics are embedded in the universe. We know they're there. We know they're effective. We don't know how they are embedded.
MS. TIPPETT: Mm-hmm. OK.
DR. ELLIS: So, it's important to understand that we don't understand those, either. In the same way I envisage ethics as being a universal thing, which is applicable. It is there because of the nature of God. It is something we discover and don't invent. That's why I made that point about mathematics. And it is discovered to be the same by all these religious traditions. I'm confident of the following: If we were to one day make contact with people in Alpha Centauri…
MS. TIPPETT: Those are people in other galaxies, life in other…
DR. ELLIS: Yeah.
MS. TIPPETT: Yes.
DR. ELLIS: …we would start talking with them about mathematics, because we are confident that they will have the same understanding of mathematics as we do. If we got on to talk to them about ethics, I'm confident we would find that they, also, had discovered kenotic ethics in the nature of the universe.
MS. TIPPETT:Welcome back to Speaking of Faith, public radio's conversation about religion, meaning, ethics, and ideas. I'm Krista Tippett. Today, "Science and Hope," with Templeton Prize-winning cosmologist George Ellis.
As a cosmologist, George Ellis has explored the nature of space and time, including such questions as whether the universe had a beginning. He's also interested in how human behavior affects the physical universe. He believes that the peaceful end of apartheid in his native South Africa was an event that, in his words, "defied the calculus of rationality."
Through his social activism in South Africa, his Quaker faith, and his scientific research, Ellis has concluded that there are deep ethical truths, an ethical compass built into the physical universe. He calls it a kenotic ethic, referring to a New Testament Greek word describing the ethic of Jesus. At the extreme end, kenosis implies sacrificing one's life. In daily life, Ellis says, it is the basic work of relationship and community of balancing self-interest with the good of others."
MR. BUZENBERG: Given your path of peaceful resistance, do you have any advice for those in conflict in our schools, our boardrooms, and the military? Is there a path of thought to use as we evaluate confrontational situations in everyday life?
DR. ELLIS: That's, well, something I have seen in other places, I really want to say here. I think our biggest enemy in all of this is Hollywood. If you turn on the television, within 10 minutes and, absolutely, always, without exception, you will find the cinema TV is teaching people to — the way to solve problems is to kill people. And that is a message which is broadcast to the black people in the townships in my country, sitting there. This is the role model which is offered to them. And what we've got to do is try to make available the alternative models where children learn, from the smallest ages 'til they're adults, that there are other ways to solve this, that there are peaceful solutions, there are ways in which you sit down and try and talk with people. You don't pull out a gun and shoot them, which is what Hollywood is teaching people daily, 24 hours a day. And I really think that is one of the major problems we have at this time. I'm not sure what one does about that.
MS. TIPPETT: Do you know of projects or, you know what — do you have something in mind, how do we create these models, these other kinds of images?
DR. ELLIS: Well, one of the projects I'm involved with in Cape Town is the Quaker Peace Centre, and we run a school's education program. They use a spectrum. And it's a simple spectrum. It is kind of conflict resolution techniques — getting to use mediation, all that kind of sort of stuff. But I think it's really important to try to take it further. The self-sacrifice is the far end, the really difficult end. But the part, which everybody can reach, which is difficult, but it can be reached, is the issue of forgiveness and the realization of the damage that resentments cause. The fact that you can let go of resentments and forgive and transform the situation by doing that, there is a very interesting phrase that comes in that. You cannot change the facts of the past, but you can change the meaning of the past by re-evaluating it. And I think it is possible and easy in schools to teach — relatively easy — the sort of the simple skills of conflict resolution, listening to the other, and trying to be in their sandals, all that kind of sort of stuff. I think it is possible at the school level to go through to try and to teach people about forgiveness. I think the far end is more difficult.
MS. TIPPETT: Quaker cosmologist, George Ellis, responding to audience questions during a live interview in Philadelphia. I'm Krista Tippett and this is Speaking of Faithfrom American Public Media. Today, "Science and Hope." We're exploring how scientific and religious ideas converge in George Ellis's thought. He's been speaking about the deep universal ethic of kenosis, or self-giving, which he believes is built into the cosmos. A member of the audience asked how this ethic might be applied in a situation like the current U.S. involvement in Iraq.
DR. ELLIS: I want to take just a little bit of time about this because this is very important. Let me first step back to an example of the historical kenosis, which was crucially important. It's the difference between the end of the First World War and the end of the Second World War. The end of the First World War was the Treaty of Versailles, which was a vengeful treaty in which there was absolutely no kenosis. It sets up a situation in which vengeance was enacted on the German people, and one can argue whether or not that was a just thing to do. But it puts situations in place which let Hitler gain his power, and it put the German people in a place which guaranteed that the Second World War would take place. And that is shown in many of the studies of the beginning of the Second World War. The lesson was learned. And at the end of the Second World War, although the leaders were held to account, and some of them executed, the population at large of Germany was not treated in the same way as the end of the First World War. Instead, there was the martial plan, which was a giving to the German people who had cause this immense destruction. And it is that, which wouldn't place the basis of peace in Europe for the next 50 years. And I think that is a really practical example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. Now, I'm going to read something, which I told you I would read about.
MS. TIPPETT: Right.
DR. ELLIS: In relation to Iraq, I want to read to you — when I got the prize, I got a lot of e-mails, and some of it was very interesting. This is from a man called David Christie. He says as follows: "In 1967, I was a young officer in a Scottish battalion engaged in peacekeeping duties in Aden town and what is now Yemen. The situation was similar to Iraq, with people being killed every day. As always, those who suffered the most were the innocent local people. Not only were we tough, but we had the power to pretty well destroy the whole town had we wished." This is the British Army. "But we had a commanding officer who understood how to make peace, and he led us to do something very unusual: not to react when we were attacked. Only if we were a 100 percent certain that a particular person had thrown a grenade or fired a shot at us were we allowed to fire. During our tour of duty, we had 102 grenades thrown at us. And in response, the battalion fired with a grand total of two shots, killing one grenade-thrower.
"The cost to us was over 100 of our own men wounded and, surely by the grace of God, only one killed. When they threw rocks at us, we stood fast. When they threw grenades, we hit the deck and after the explosions, we got to our feet and stood fast. We did not react in anger or indiscriminately. This was not the anticipated reaction. Slowly, very slowly, the local people began to trust us and made it clear to the local terrorists that they were not welcome in their area. At one stage, neighboring battalions were having a torrid time with attacks. We were playing soccer with the locals. We had, in fact, brought peace to the area at the cost of our own blood. How had this been achieved? Principally, because we were led by a man, who, every soldier in the battalion knew would die for him if required. Each soldier in turn came to be prepared to sacrifice himself for such a man. Many people may sneer that we were merely obeying orders. But this was not the case. Our commanding officer was more highly regarded by his soldiers than the general, one might almost say, loved. So gradually, the heart of the peacemaker began to grow in the men and determination to succeed, whatever the cost. Probably, most of the soldiers, like myself, only realized years afterwards what had been achieved."
That is kenosis in action. In a strange situation, an army armed to the teeth but acting in a way in which they were sacrificing because they were wounded, and they didn't take revenge unless they were 100 percent certain what they were doing.
From an interview with Dr. George Ellis
Letter from David Cristie
My conversation with George Ellis was recorded in June 2004 after he won the Templeton prize. We spoke before a live audience at WHYY in Philadelphia. Ellis also responded to questions from the audience. Speaking of Faith's founding producer, Bill Buzenberg, moderated that exchange.
BILL BUZENBERG: Why is the kenotic ethic inherent in the structure of the universe? Where does it come from?
DR. ELLIS: OK. Let me immediately say that there is no scientific proof of this kind of statement. This is a, like everything else to do with religion, this is a faith statement, and I can't prove it's right, but I can give you arguments that it's right. Where does it come from? At one level, the answer comes from the nature of God. It's what is evident for us by all the major religious traditions. And you mentioned this, but I really want to emphasize this, and Sir John Templeton has written about this. This — what just Sir John Templeton calls agape love, unconditional love. It is in all the major religious traditions.
And I, particularly, from my own experience, was talking about this in Berkeley a while ago, at the Science and Spiritual Quest. And I finished talking, and a man rushed up to me with great excitement. He's said, 'Fantastic talk. I really enjoyed that.' He says, 'You spoke like a Muslim.' Yes, he.
MS. TIPPETT: OK.
DR. ELLIS: And he was the director of the Muslim Centre in London. And I think that's really important to understand in the present day, that the true deep understanding of the Muslim faith incorporates this idea. I, in turn, in London, was at — in New York, was at the State of the World meeting, and I heard Professor Jonathan Sacks, the chief rabbi of Great Britain, talking about this. And he is an absolutely marvelous person. He talked in exactly the same kind of way. So I had fun going up to him afterwards. I said, 'Professor Sacks, you talk like a Quaker,' and he looked at me, and he said, 'I will choose to take that as a compliment.' And the evidence that it is something more than just what some people invent is the fact that it is discovered independently by all the great religious traditions.
MS. TIPPETT: So this is the nature of God, this way of being.
DR. ELLIS: Yes.
MS. TIPPETT: This kenosis, this ethic. And it's embedded in the universe as an expression of — an expression of that is embedded in the universe.
DR. ELLIS: This is why I introduced this thing about mathematics. We haven't got a clue in what way mathematics is embedded there, but it is there in some platonic space waiting to be discovered. We actually haven't got a clue how the laws of physics are embedded in the universe. We know they're there. We know they're effective. We don't know how they are embedded.
MS. TIPPETT: Mm-hmm. OK.
DR. ELLIS: So, it's important to understand that we don't understand those, either. In the same way I envisage ethics as being a universal thing, which is applicable. It is there because of the nature of God. It is something we discover and don't invent. That's why I made that point about mathematics. And it is discovered to be the same by all these religious traditions. I'm confident of the following: If we were to one day make contact with people in Alpha Centauri…
MS. TIPPETT: Those are people in other galaxies, life in other…
DR. ELLIS: Yeah.
MS. TIPPETT: Yes.
DR. ELLIS: …we would start talking with them about mathematics, because we are confident that they will have the same understanding of mathematics as we do. If we got on to talk to them about ethics, I'm confident we would find that they, also, had discovered kenotic ethics in the nature of the universe.
MS. TIPPETT:Welcome back to Speaking of Faith, public radio's conversation about religion, meaning, ethics, and ideas. I'm Krista Tippett. Today, "Science and Hope," with Templeton Prize-winning cosmologist George Ellis.
As a cosmologist, George Ellis has explored the nature of space and time, including such questions as whether the universe had a beginning. He's also interested in how human behavior affects the physical universe. He believes that the peaceful end of apartheid in his native South Africa was an event that, in his words, "defied the calculus of rationality."
Through his social activism in South Africa, his Quaker faith, and his scientific research, Ellis has concluded that there are deep ethical truths, an ethical compass built into the physical universe. He calls it a kenotic ethic, referring to a New Testament Greek word describing the ethic of Jesus. At the extreme end, kenosis implies sacrificing one's life. In daily life, Ellis says, it is the basic work of relationship and community of balancing self-interest with the good of others."
MR. BUZENBERG: Given your path of peaceful resistance, do you have any advice for those in conflict in our schools, our boardrooms, and the military? Is there a path of thought to use as we evaluate confrontational situations in everyday life?
DR. ELLIS: That's, well, something I have seen in other places, I really want to say here. I think our biggest enemy in all of this is Hollywood. If you turn on the television, within 10 minutes and, absolutely, always, without exception, you will find the cinema TV is teaching people to — the way to solve problems is to kill people. And that is a message which is broadcast to the black people in the townships in my country, sitting there. This is the role model which is offered to them. And what we've got to do is try to make available the alternative models where children learn, from the smallest ages 'til they're adults, that there are other ways to solve this, that there are peaceful solutions, there are ways in which you sit down and try and talk with people. You don't pull out a gun and shoot them, which is what Hollywood is teaching people daily, 24 hours a day. And I really think that is one of the major problems we have at this time. I'm not sure what one does about that.
MS. TIPPETT: Do you know of projects or, you know what — do you have something in mind, how do we create these models, these other kinds of images?
DR. ELLIS: Well, one of the projects I'm involved with in Cape Town is the Quaker Peace Centre, and we run a school's education program. They use a spectrum. And it's a simple spectrum. It is kind of conflict resolution techniques — getting to use mediation, all that kind of sort of stuff. But I think it's really important to try to take it further. The self-sacrifice is the far end, the really difficult end. But the part, which everybody can reach, which is difficult, but it can be reached, is the issue of forgiveness and the realization of the damage that resentments cause. The fact that you can let go of resentments and forgive and transform the situation by doing that, there is a very interesting phrase that comes in that. You cannot change the facts of the past, but you can change the meaning of the past by re-evaluating it. And I think it is possible and easy in schools to teach — relatively easy — the sort of the simple skills of conflict resolution, listening to the other, and trying to be in their sandals, all that kind of sort of stuff. I think it is possible at the school level to go through to try and to teach people about forgiveness. I think the far end is more difficult.
MS. TIPPETT: Quaker cosmologist, George Ellis, responding to audience questions during a live interview in Philadelphia. I'm Krista Tippett and this is Speaking of Faithfrom American Public Media. Today, "Science and Hope." We're exploring how scientific and religious ideas converge in George Ellis's thought. He's been speaking about the deep universal ethic of kenosis, or self-giving, which he believes is built into the cosmos. A member of the audience asked how this ethic might be applied in a situation like the current U.S. involvement in Iraq.
DR. ELLIS: I want to take just a little bit of time about this because this is very important. Let me first step back to an example of the historical kenosis, which was crucially important. It's the difference between the end of the First World War and the end of the Second World War. The end of the First World War was the Treaty of Versailles, which was a vengeful treaty in which there was absolutely no kenosis. It sets up a situation in which vengeance was enacted on the German people, and one can argue whether or not that was a just thing to do. But it puts situations in place which let Hitler gain his power, and it put the German people in a place which guaranteed that the Second World War would take place. And that is shown in many of the studies of the beginning of the Second World War. The lesson was learned. And at the end of the Second World War, although the leaders were held to account, and some of them executed, the population at large of Germany was not treated in the same way as the end of the First World War. Instead, there was the martial plan, which was a giving to the German people who had cause this immense destruction. And it is that, which wouldn't place the basis of peace in Europe for the next 50 years. And I think that is a really practical example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. Now, I'm going to read something, which I told you I would read about.
MS. TIPPETT: Right.
DR. ELLIS: In relation to Iraq, I want to read to you — when I got the prize, I got a lot of e-mails, and some of it was very interesting. This is from a man called David Christie. He says as follows: "In 1967, I was a young officer in a Scottish battalion engaged in peacekeeping duties in Aden town and what is now Yemen. The situation was similar to Iraq, with people being killed every day. As always, those who suffered the most were the innocent local people. Not only were we tough, but we had the power to pretty well destroy the whole town had we wished." This is the British Army. "But we had a commanding officer who understood how to make peace, and he led us to do something very unusual: not to react when we were attacked. Only if we were a 100 percent certain that a particular person had thrown a grenade or fired a shot at us were we allowed to fire. During our tour of duty, we had 102 grenades thrown at us. And in response, the battalion fired with a grand total of two shots, killing one grenade-thrower.
"The cost to us was over 100 of our own men wounded and, surely by the grace of God, only one killed. When they threw rocks at us, we stood fast. When they threw grenades, we hit the deck and after the explosions, we got to our feet and stood fast. We did not react in anger or indiscriminately. This was not the anticipated reaction. Slowly, very slowly, the local people began to trust us and made it clear to the local terrorists that they were not welcome in their area. At one stage, neighboring battalions were having a torrid time with attacks. We were playing soccer with the locals. We had, in fact, brought peace to the area at the cost of our own blood. How had this been achieved? Principally, because we were led by a man, who, every soldier in the battalion knew would die for him if required. Each soldier in turn came to be prepared to sacrifice himself for such a man. Many people may sneer that we were merely obeying orders. But this was not the case. Our commanding officer was more highly regarded by his soldiers than the general, one might almost say, loved. So gradually, the heart of the peacemaker began to grow in the men and determination to succeed, whatever the cost. Probably, most of the soldiers, like myself, only realized years afterwards what had been achieved."
That is kenosis in action. In a strange situation, an army armed to the teeth but acting in a way in which they were sacrificing because they were wounded, and they didn't take revenge unless they were 100 percent certain what they were doing.
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