The following is a conversation I had with some friends recently. I am posting it because I think it may be you may find it interesting! I am trying to share my faith without coming across self-righteous. Let me know what you think. we are all learning! Dennis
Ethan: John Lennon said, "Imagine no religion." I agree, totally. Religion is an unnatural, divisive force separating people into antagonistic groups, who cling desperately to beliefs based on their fear of death, salvation and the afterlife. We need to live in the moment. When those irrational beliefs are questioned, people "of faith" become disoriented and violence is their only option. That's what happened in the Roman siege of Gaul, the Crusades, the Inquisition and... Boston. Debate is not an option, because religion is not at all based on logic - it's based on fear. Pathetic, really. Sorry, Dennis, but Religion is a myth. God may or may not be real, but the rest is just crap.
Dennis : False religion was the opium of the masses until we got TV and shopping malls and computers. I agree in living in the moment. That´s what one of the prophets said. "Take no thought for tomorrow for tomorrow will take thought for itself, sufficient unto the day are today´s troubles."[1] And another said, “Forgetting those things that are behind, I reach forth for those things that are before."[2] The evidences you mention above about religion´s bad conduct are from the false hypocritical religionists who have always persecuted the real followers of love and peace. If God is love like the good Book says and we do unto to others like we want them to do unto us, which basically means to treat others like we would want to be treated, then that´s all the religion we need. But that idea so infuriated the religious leaders of the past, that they killed the prophet hoping it would wipe out those revolutionary ideas. You are right, friend. Religion is not an option. But religion and faith are not equals. Real faith is logical. The reason we can do science is because we are in a universe that operates on rational or reasonable laws. Where do those laws come from? Scientists confess that there are around 100 physical variables that need to be perfectly fine-tuned for the universe and life on earth to exist. Can we explain that fine-tuning?
Dennis: How did they get fine-tuned within the first sixty seconds after the "singularity"? The speed of light, the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, electromagnetic field, gravity, the vigor of the "big bang," etc. How come water is perfectly "made" to make life possible? When the "big bang” occurred where did the matter that was spinning around in that little small dot smaller than a period come from? Why did it start to spin? Who or what made it spin? Where did the energy come from that gave the "big bang" just the perfect amount of force so that the universe did not fall back upon itself, or disappear completely and be unable to form galaxies etc. Evolution has no answers for these questions except nothing exploded and made everything. To me, that is not logical. The scientific law of causality states that if something has a beginning it has a cause, the First Cause. Einstein´s theory of relativity led to the scientific mathematical conclusion that the universe had a beginning. This fact led Einstein to abandon his belief in the Steady-State Theory of the universe which said the universe has no beginning or end. He said the bigger mistake from being wrong would be to not acknowledge that he was wrong and not change. But he did acknowledge it even though it had theological implications. He changed his belief system based on the physical evidence. He confessed the universe had some kind of creator though he stayed away from traditional religion. He also said when men discovered the Universal Theory that it would be both beautiful and simple. Most people today do not even realize the illogicality of their belief system. But Faith is in fact logical. True science leads to faith as many great scientists of the past have acknowledged. Most people can see the faults and hypocrisy of the man-made religions of today and therefore many conclude there is no God. However, has anyone ever thought that maybe the religious ceremonies and systems we observe may have very little or nothing to do with the creator of the universe?
Dennis: I do not want to be part of that false religious/ political system that wages war against the true followers of love and peace. The true followers of love and peace will always be in the minority, because though many are called, so few will pick up the call and follow. The voice of conscience is "God´s" voice speaking to our heart. Do you hear his voice? Or have you hardened your heart, because of so much pain, suffering, and injustice, that you see in the world around us? Friend, once when I was young and the FBI was after me, because I did not show up for my physical or induction, I called out to "God," though I did not believe "He" existed. Usually there is some catalyst that causes us to seek "Him." But the prophet Jeremiah said, "You shall seek "Me" and find "Me" when you shall search for "Me" with all your heart."[3] Have you really sought for "Him" with all your heart? Or are you letting your concept of religion get in the way of finding out if there really is a creator of the universe?
Dennis: The book In Six Days: why 50 scientists (Doctorates) believe in creation, edited by John Aston, may give you some logical answers to questions you may have. Dr. Lee Spetner, who holds a PHD in physics from MIT, has a book called Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution which you may also find interesting. Then there is Werner Gitt an information scientist who poses some very good questions about the information code found in the DNA molecule in his book In the Beginning Was Information. I hope you will investigate further by reading one or more of them. Religion may be illogical and based on blind faith, but real faith is based on reason. Will you reason with me for the answers?
( The above posts to Ethan I shared privately but then he re-posted the Lennon quote again.)
Ethan: Believe what you want, or need, to believe. DO NOT try to change what your neighbor believes, no matter how alien it seems to you, and DO NOT hate them for their equally irrational beliefs. If you do, the world will slip further and further into terminal darkness.( Dennis - I do not agree with the idea of not trying to change people. As Christians we are commanded by Christ to loving preach and live the gospel to affect change in others. Peter also says we should be ready to give an answer to every man that asks us of the reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear. Paul told us to vigorously contend for the faith, but it is important that we do so humbly and with kindness.)
Jane: Spot on!
Dennis : To Ethan: I believe we are all in the business of moving people, influencing people. Why did you put that post if you did not want to influence others to your way of thinking? We all try and influence others, but the way we do it makes the difference. Love is getting down where someone else is and trying to lift and help him up. Much of the progress of the pass came from a few individuals who were willing to stand up and fight for some unpopular issue, like emancipation for the blacks, equality for the Jews, etc.
Jane: Dennis I think of the Christmas song....just be good for goodness sake....to define a way of believing eliminates all those who think differently ... live and let live
Ethan: The only law we need is the Golden Rule. "Do unto others as YOU WOULD HAVE others do unto you." Not, "Do unto to others BECAUSE (Jesus, Allah, Yahweh) say so..." Why doesn't matter. Be good for goodness sake is a wonderful phrase; a perfect phrase. (Dennis - I agree with that first line that all we need is the golden rule. If we followed that we find it is even harder than the ten commandments.)
Ethan to Jane: Thanks, Jane.
Jane: Just heard on NPR..an apathist.....it doesn't matter what the "story" is after we die..we will die..I'm not expecting anything afterwards.... I make my happiness one day at a time...if there's anything after..bonus time...if not I won't be disappointed...(Jane told me she was a Unitarian.)
Dennis : To Jane: If there are absolutes then one of the purposes in life is to find out what those absolutes are and live according to their dictates. If someone finds a way to light a candle in the darkness, then his moral conscience obligates him to try to teach others how they too can light a candle. Let´s say someone invents a baby food that is more nutritious than the traditional, then he feels morally obligated to try to influence others to use that product. Love is sharing the knowledge and experience that life has taught us in a loving way. We cannot legislate righteousness but as believers we should shine forth the truth with love and tolerance.
Ethan: What a load. Who’s to say that that particular baby food is the best? What if experts disagree (as do “holy men“)... and I use the words in their most sarcastic tone.
Leave people alone and teach them to respect themselves and others, and god becomes a useless appendage to our lives. ( Dennis - I mentioned the Baby food because he sells his own brand that is suppose to be better for babies and even shared it on my photo page, which I left there because he is a friend and I want him no harm.)
Kathy: Explaining the existence of God to someone who has never experienced Him is like trying to describe an orgasm to someone who has never had one. Does that mean that orgasms do not exist or are useless? (Dennis - Excellent example!)
Jane: I think I'm going to leave this conversation. Addressing Dennis ..absolutes...I absolutely know I'm going to die..what happens after is based on belief as no one on this earth knows what comes next. I don't waste my time worrying about the hereafter. ( Dennis - I am not worrying. I have that question worked out. Jesus has given me eternal life because I believe in Him.)
Ethan: There is, female friend, no assurance that the orgasm you experience is like anyone else's. If a Muslim experiences Allah, is it different from Christian experiencing Jesus? But this conversation is not at all about the existence of god... it is about the rules.
Abby: So interesting that I'm reading your conversation just after reading a NYT editorial that states..."religious attendance boosts the immune system and decreases blood pressure." (P. 9 in Sunday Review section. If you wish to read the rest for a good laugh!)
Dennis : Jane: Pascal´s famous wager. Live a good life following the golden rule is the best bet. But it is sad that people wait until they die to find out if God is real when He wants to have a personal relationship with us today and help us through the struggles of life. He wants to be a friend that sticks closer than a brother. For those who have experienced that friendship, it is hard for us to shut up about it. Like a Near Death Experience, it totally changes your life and your life´s goals. Like Paul said, "I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
Dennis : Ethan: Where does universal morality come from? I agree with you, Ethan, that the endless following of religious rules means nothing and this is what the prophet said and showed with his life style. The religious leaders of his day where so infuriated with him that they had him accused of political crimes against the state and killed.
Ethan: I'm out of this. When I start heeding scripture... whatever scripture it may be... I am at peace with life and I am at peace with the inevitable prospect of death. Invictus: I am captain of my fate, master of my soul. QED ( Dennis - And a few lines earlier the quote says..."My head is bloodied, but unbowed!)
Dennis : But Ethan: Where does objective right and wrong come from if it doesn´t come from God? You see we all know that there are absolutes, there is an objective morality and that objective morality must come from somewhere. Our conscience is God´s presence which brings about objective morality. It´s like the information within the DNA. It did not just get there by itself. Information always goes back to a sender. The tremendous amount of information in the DNA molecule cries aloud of a supernatural creator much more intelligent than you or I. He has put His signature in the cell for all to see. He has put it in the beautiful sunset, in the sky at night and the experience of sexual pleasure with someone we love. He can be seen in all these things and so many more. And He wants us to enjoy life and gives us a simply rule to live by: love.
Ethan: Dennis, it's referred to as "evolutionary conscience". We would not have been able to form ever larger and more complex civilizations were we without that aspect of our psychological makeup. It is as essential as opposable thumbs, language and stereo vision in our development. If we didn't have it, we'd simply kill each other willy-nilly. It was here before we even thought about one god... or any gods. Pagan civilizations possessed it. Primitive man possessed it. You argue against evolution, and even radio-carbon dating, based on a book written before willow bark was known as an anti-inflammatory; before real "empirical science" existed. There is no book, Dennis. There is only life and death. I do not need, seek or desire a "relationship" with god. Never have (I was literally forced to be bar mitzvahed), never will. I am an agnostic. I don't say a god or gods don't exist. I just don't care, and I'm sick and tired of being told I should care about what I have every human right to consider biblical smoke and mirrors. We "prohibit" gay marriage, marijuana, prostitution and a host of other personal choices which are none of anyone else's business. In the name of religion, we burned witches, slaughtered Muslims during the Crusades and committed countless genocides. We prohibited alcohol based on a radical, party-pooping group of Christian women called the Temperance Movement. That was a disaster, in every respect. Every prohibition is. Keep religion, god and biblical precepts out of our lives and legal system. Let logic be the rule of law and intelligence based on fact (rather than fear based on belief) reign supreme. (Dennis - My faith is based on reason not on fear. The evidences in nature and in life and in science point me to a eternal God infinitely superior to man.)
Ethan: If you believe it, that's great. I hope you find strength, solace and meaning in it. I don't, and most of us are sick of hearing about it. DO NOT try to "sell" it to anyone else, or insist that you're beliefs (or what you label "knowledge") are for everyone else to follow, believe in or care about. That sort of blind, self-centered insistence is exactly what a just god would NOT want. ( Dennis - Well, I do not want to come across self-righteously, but neither do I want to let others make claims that I believe are false and not speak up.)
Ethan: BTW, to Kathy, I know a lot more about orgasm than I know about god... more experience. LOL Seeking out THAT knowledge has served me better than Hebrew school ever did.
Kathy: I thought this was a conversation where anyone could jump in and pick up a thread. You mentioned that you don't think that God exists and I stated I did. I agree that religion divides men, because men, who are fallible, make up rules of religion; such as not eating bacon or drinking coffee. I don't think that I am trying to force my beliefs upon anyone else. It's none of my business what you choose to believe or where your soul may end up. Because I do believe in God, I leave such matters in his hands. I do not understand why everyone gets upset with others for sharing their beliefs. I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I don't go around bursting children's bubbles at Christmas. And, Ethan, I do agree that my orgasm is individual to me; but I would hazard to say that the dictionary defines what it is at least physically. We have the freedom to believe what we choose in this country. Why is there so much emotion in people sharing their beliefs? I really don't think anyone wants to convert anyone else; I don't. If you go to an outstanding restaurant or see a hit play it is completely normal to go out and tell everyone about it. Nobody hates anyone for that. Let's just all respect that we are all different and let's support everyone's right to believe and share their opinion. Love to all. P.S. I have a splitting headache today and cannot take anything for it because of a medical test I'm having tomorrow. Does anyone know any way to get rid of it without ingesting anything?
Ethan: Unfortunately, you are in limited company as someone of faith who does not try to convince others Every day, someone from the JWs or LDS knock on doors to convert we heathens.LOL As for the analogy, everyone knows the play is fiction. The quality of the writing and acting ate the topic. That is not at all what religious faith is about. Specious comparison.
Kathy : Content isn't what I was talking about; I meant that nobody thinks you're an idiot for going on and on about how great that play or dinner was. Our society elevates a hot playwright, producer, actress, or chef to the level of a god. I think that is extremely odd.
Kathy: Any headache cures forthcoming? Any one?
Ethan: I agree. Look at Beiber's behavior at the Anna Frank house pathetic.
Ethan: When I get a headache, I take a soaked hot washcloth and place it over my eyes. Reheat and repeat. It usually works.
Kathy: Done and done. I'll try it now. Thanks!
Jane: Kathy, I guess your MO...is pray for it to go away..
Dennis : I take a cold washcloth and place it over my eyes and when it gets warm I get it cold again and repeat. It is comforting. I used to tell my wife that having sex would take her headache away! Take your choice. In any case, I´ll pray for you! (Dennis - It is quite funny that me and Ethan did the exact opposite to relieve a headache. I was not trying to be sarcastic.)
Dennis: So few people realize that the false religions of churches and temples and mosques have actually very little or nothing to do with the true worship of God. God is a spirit, the spirit of love and "He" wants us to worship "Him" in spirit and in truth in how we live our lives. It´s not a rule keeping, or fear of death, but a purpose for living. It´s a lifting up of the heart and mind above the morass of the sad world we live in and seeing beyond into the unknown dimension and finding light, love and purpose in living! It´s a spiritual orgasm and it´s wonderful! Try it, you might like it!
Jane: I'm thinking at best god is a she....
Ethan: The best anything is a she.
Kathy: Tsk tsk Jane. Your intolerance of other opinions is showing.
Ethan: Ok. Show is over. Thank you all for attending, and Jane for adding reason and logic to the mix. 'night all.
Kathy: Oops you forgot about the golden rule. Shouldn’t you treat us all with respect and not just the friend who shares your views? Hardly the sign of a good host.
Dennis : Actually, the book of Proverbs seems to present the Holy Spirit in the feminine case.[4] In the traditional Christian belief of a Three-in-One-God, it would seem to make sense that there needs to be a feminine aspect. In the book The Shack by William P Young, the author also presents "God the Father" as a woman. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost can be seen as a Heavenly family, if that is the case, then the Holy Ghost would be the woman. Of course I am speculating as we have only glimpses into the spiritual dimension. But some in depth studies on this subject have been made by others. That was why I put "He" in quotations as God is a spirit with infinite abilities so whether we should use "He" or "She" I do not know. And I do not think it matters. Like Paul said, "Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face."[5] Hope this helps!
Dennis: Ethan, and as far as empirical science is concerned, agnostic Biologist Dr. Michael Denton does a good study on the topic of the impossibilities of changing a reptile into a bird which evolutionists claim. It can be seen on YouTube on “From a Prince to a Frog," http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtDX17KjjG0 In his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Denton wrote, “Neither of the two fundamental axioms of Darwin´s macro-evolutionary theory- the idea that all of life forms are linked together and ultimately lead back to a primordial cell and the belief that all the adaptive design of life has resulted from a random process – have been validated by one single EMPIRICAL discovery or scientific advance since 1859.”[6]
Reiterating the point once again, neither natural selection nor mutations, which evolutionists claim are the mechanisms for evolutionary change, can form new genetic information. The theory that you are trusting in does not have a mechanism. People have been duped into believing that evolution is true and therefore their disbelief in God is justified. But, Ethan, when we look at the scientific facts, we find that evolution is the far less reasonable and logical of the theories. But, nevertheless, we accept it because we have rejected the concept of God. Our empty and hypocritical religious experiences from childhood and adolescence have taught us that God is dead, or at least inattentive to this life. In any case, we don´t want a religion that will crowd out our sexuality. We want to be free to live life to the full. I fully understand that and I´m sure God does, too. I just think you have quite a few misconceptions due to the obvious faults with the religious systems around the world. Very few, if any, have much to do with the "Spirit of the Living God."[7]
Footnotes:
[1] Matthew 6:34
[2] Philippians 3:13
[3] Jeremiah 29:13
[4] Proverbs 8; Proverbs 9:1-12
[5] 1Corinthians 13:12
[6] Denton, Dr. Michael; Evolution in Crisis
[7] 2Corinthians 3:3
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