Dear One,
Thanks for the conversation last night. I really appreciate honest and open debate and the questions you posed are not easily answered. I think one of the questions we need to ask ourselves is; Are their moral absolutes? If there are moral absolutes, where can we find them? You seem to believe there are moral absolutes when it comes to murdering or taking life as in the case of abortion and euthanasia. Where do your moral absolutes come from on this issue? Ultimately, I believe you will agree that they come from the principles laid down in God’s word, the Bible. Ultimately, you believe God’s word is true. God has said, “Thou shall not kill.” “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Your absolute moral convictions on this topic come from God’s word.
God’s ultimate condemnation of Israel was for the abominations she committed in allowing her children to pass through the fires of Moloch, for the shedding of innocent blood openly in Jerusalem. What blood is more innocent than that of a new born child as in the ancient anti-God customs of the past, like Moloch, or today’s counterpart in abortion? God’s word says that God ultimately judged Israel for the sins of Manasseh, “according to all that he did and also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the Lord would not pardon.” (2Kings 24:3-4) “He did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out before the children of Israel.” (2Kings 21:2) “And worshipped the host of heaven and served them. And built alters for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. And made his sons pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger.” “Moreover Manasseh shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another; besides his sin wherewith he made Judah to sin, in doing that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.” (2Kings 21:16)
What were the abominations of the heathen that God judged Israel for? I would put forward that one of the abominations of the heathen was the acceptance of homosexual behavior. When Josiah, Manasseh’s grandson started a revival in Israel one of the first things he did after initiating the rereading of God’s word and the killing of the high priests of other religions, was that “he braked down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord,….and he defied Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Moloch.” (2Kings23:7&10) In other words, he abolished the acceptance of homosexual behavior and stopped infanticide.
Jesus himself did indirectly condemn homosexuality in his reference to the “days of Sodom and Gomorrah” in Luke 17: 28&29. “Likewise, also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.” One of the main sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexual behavior. But Ezekiel also mentions these other sins to Jerusalem in reference to Sodom: “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughter, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” (Ezekiel 16:49&50) So these other “sins” are equally offensive in God’s eyes.
In Leviticus strangely enough, we find the verse about child infanticide together with homosexual behavior. “And thou shall not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Moloch, neither shall thou profane the name of thy God; I am the Lord. Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” (Leviticus 18:21&22) But as you mentioned, the verse before says “Moreover thou shall not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife, to defile thyself with her.” (18:20) Deuteronomy also states “there shall not be a sodomite of the sons of Israel.”
There is a story in the Old Testament of the prophet’s wife, a former prostitute, who was defiled by “Sons of Belial” until almost the whole tribe of Benjamin was going to be eliminated by Israel because of it. The “sons of Belial” seems to not only include homosexual behavior, but also a kind of perverted wildness, out of control aggressive perverted sex, like anal sex and bestiality. Kind of like the stories Jeremy Spencer told about the sex life of some of the famous musician he knew.
We know that Jesus took the word of God seriously and quoted from it constantly. He did this differently from the Scribes and Pharisees who used the word of God to condemn and control the people. Jesus showed the true spirit of the word in his attempt to enlighten and free the people from these false religious leaders. Like Ezekiel 34 so aptly points out about the false shepherds.
I agree with you that homosexuality has not been properly approached by the church. Our former pastor was always a good example in his loving acceptance of others in trying to reach them with the gospel and connect then to Jesus. But nevertheless he maintained his strong conviction that the Bible was God’s word. It just needed to be rightly divided and understood through the spirit which Jesus clearly manifested. Jesus in John 8 doesn’t condemn the adulterous woman, but yet he tells her to go and sin no more. Obviously, he is not embracing adultery, but embracing the adulterous. In like manner, he wasn’t embracing tax corruption by going to eat with Zacchaeus. By embracing Zacchaeus, he helps him find the kingdom of God. As a result Zacchaeus changes his behavior and returns the money from those he has over taxed.
I think it is the same with homosexuality. Yes, we do need to embrace the homosexual as our former pastor taught and Jesus teaches. But we do not need to embrace and accept as “normal” the homosexual behavior. My friend Nick knows I do not accept homosexual behavior. But he respects me for the loving way I treated him and others while we studied together at university. I have tried to continue to show my love and respect for him. But I cannot accept a behavior I believe is in violation of God’s word. I may be old fashion. I believe that the philosophy of relativism or utilitarianism or morality measure by what is acceptable by the majority of the people moves society away from the moral absolutes of God’s word. Yes, God’s word does need to be always balanced and applied by the spirit of love and grace. Like you said, people do not want religion. They need to connect with Jesus and that connection not only comes from the spirit but from knowing the words of truth found in God’s word.
We have been fortunate enough to have had the training which liberated us from religious Pharisee-ism. But we have seen that very few people are capable of too much freedom. Because of our sinful nature we tend to use our liberty to the occasion to the flesh, especially if we are given too much liberty and don't have restraints and guidelines. I wrote a letter like this to a friend recently when sharing my beliefs about creation and the book of Genesis. I don’t believe that Genesis is poetry. I do not believe that it doesn't really matter when or how God created, but just that He did. If God’s word says He did it in six days, I believe He did. But I have searched for reasonable answers to this question of faith. I have found scientists like Russel Humpreys and others who have scientifically tried to find answers of how this could be physically possible in a universe which some claim seems to be millions or billions of years old.
I think Humphreys’ conclusion are as plausible an explanation as others and may even fit the accessible evidence more accurately. But it depends on your starting assumptions. If the Bible is truly God’s word and God’s communication to man, then you start you scientific assumptions based on the claims in God’s word. However, if the Bible is not true, where do you take your initial assumptions from?
We all have initial assumptions. I believe like Lee Strobel that the initial assumptions that are in line with the word of God are the ones that are ultimately true. I believe that the Evangelical scientists have some points that are right on. The stereotyped Christian bigot personality, which does exist, is not profoundly obvious in these learned men. They come across lovingly and with good reasonable biblical arguments. Just because some evangelicals are self-righteous, does not mean we need to throw away everything evangelicals believe. Some of their doctrinal foundation may be true and we should not just throw it all away because they are self-righteous. Instead, maybe we need to lovingly and un-self-righteously present the message without throwing away the foundation stones.
Like in the lecture Builder’s Beware, the danger is taking out God’s Word from the foundation. As long as the building was firmly planted on the rock of God’s foundation, His Word, it remained strong no matter what the physical alternations were made. I have my reservations about neglecting God’s Word or saying it’s not important. Yes, the word without the spirit is dead and brings death and condemnation. The word with the spirit brings life and light and is true. I think, we, as ambassadors of God’s kingdom, need to rightly divide and apply and minister God’s word in love and truth and be the true shepherds God wants his people to be. “But, if the foundations be removed, what shall the righteous do?” (Psalm 11:3)
With love we need to bring people to the light of God’s word which is not only love but truth and helps us to discern the intents and thoughts of men’s heart. It is the knowledge of God’s word which has made you smart and given you discernment exceedingly above those of your peers. I think you will do yourself a disservice if you throw the word away now and say all we need is the spirit. They are uniquely joined together and are part of the definition of what and who God is. These are my thoughts. Yes, I agree with you on the importance of lovingly embracing the homosexual community, as well as the Jewish community, and the Black community, and the Muslim community and the atheist community and any community, if we can do so without losing our Biblical foundation. Instead of society affecting and changing our faith, we should be instruments of affecting change in society in a loving and compassionate way. The goal is for them to ultimately find the faith which we have found in Jesus and God’s word.
We may not be very successful, and we may be ostracized and labeled as intolerant, but we can console ourselves that God’s word says that these days will take place before His coming. “There shall come a falling away first and then shall the end come.” (2Thessolonians 2) Anyway, that is the way God has led me in my search for what I believe. Jesus said, “Had you believed Moses you would have believed me, for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words.” (John 5:46&47) I have a hard time throwing out the written word just because of other’s misinterpretation or misrepresentation of its truth. My faith is built on God’s word. My doctrinal belief is not the first part of my witness. Love is. Doctrine is a part of it, but I also know that my point of view may not be absolutely God’s point of view. But hopefully I will be found to be in the tunnel of God’s will and truth.
Verses about abomination:
Things That Are an Abomination to God
The following is a list of things which are an abomination to God. Inasmuch as it is disgusting to God, we should certainly avoid these things.
Lev 18:22, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Compare Lev. 20:13) This is homosexuality.
1. Deut 18:10-12, "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits,(This is what Reiki is actually doing.) or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD."
A. Passing through the fire is the literal sacrifice of children in a sacrificial fire.
B. Divination is one who claims secret knowledge, especially of the future. Sometimes it is translated witchcraft, and is used of false prophets. (Reiki claims to give you some secret knowledge that will give you healing powers and make your life better.)
C. An observer of times is one who pretends to foretell the future. Sometimes translated a soothsayer, or fortune-teller.
D. An enchanter is like someone who observes serpents (all have seen the flute player as he charms the snake).
E. A witch is one who uses witchcraft, a sorcerer.
F.A charmer is one who supposedly casts a spell.
G. A consulter with familiar spirits is one who consults an oracle for information.(Reiki calls it calling on your angel spirit helpers)
H. A wizard is a wise man, perhaps one who claims to be wiser than he is, and that he can do more than he really can.
I. A necromancer is one who claims to consult, or inquire with the dead.
2. Deut 25:16, "For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the LORD thy God." (In this context the Lord is speaking of weighing and measuring fairly and properly with weights and measures.)
3. Deut 27:15, "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD." (Speaking of things to be worshiped).
4. Prov 6:16-19, "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
5. Prov. 3:32, "For the froward (perverse, devious) is abomination to the LORD:"
6. Prov. 15:9, "The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness."
7. Prov. 16:5, "Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD:"
8. Prov. 17:15, "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD."
9. Prov. 24:9, "The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men." (This is speaking of mocking and scoffing at others.)
10. Prov. 28:9, "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination."
11. Ezek. 18:12,13, "Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? He shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him."
12. Ezek 22:11, "And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour’s wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee had humbled his sister, his father’s daughter."
13. Mal. 2:11, "Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god."
14. Luke 16:15, "And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteem among men is abomination in the sight of God."
15. Rev. 21:27, "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life."
16. Lev. 18:19-26, immorality, adultery, sacrificing children to Moloch, homosexuality, bestiality, etc.
17. Deut. 20:18, the worship and service to false gods.
18. II Kings 23:24, "Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations"
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