Will the Rapture Be Before or After the Tribulation? - Part 2

Dennis Edwards: A continuation of my response to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture friend. To go back to Part 1.

Pre-Tribulation Friend: The main passage of Scripture concerning the Rapture is found in  1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The passage states that all living believers, along with believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing his people from the earth.

Dennis Edwards: We can agree here on the point above, but when that event takes place and who are involved in that rapture is the question. Let us take a deeper look at those verses. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (or dead). For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." [1 Thessalonians 4:15-18]

First let's look at the section that says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." Where else in Scripture do we find similar phraseology? The first that comes to  mind is in Matthew 24:31 which says, "And he shall send for his angels with a great sound of the trumpet." Jesus is describing to his disciples the signs of his coming.  The remainder of verse 31 says, "and they (the angels) shall  gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." That part of the verse sounds very similar to, "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." If we go back to Matthew 24:30 we see Jesus is talking about his coming. "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and glory."

Therefore, the verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24 seem to be talking about the same event.  But here's the problem. If we go back to Matthew 24:29 we get more information. Jesus tells us when this will take place. He says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." These events are taking place immediately after the tribulation.

In order to get around the obvious similarities between the two passages being talked about, Darby and Scofield decided that in Matthew 24 Jesus was talking to his disciples who were Jewish, therefore, the rapture taking place after the tribulation is of the Jewish people saved during the tribulation. In Thessalonians Apostle Paul is talking to the newly formed Christians, so the rapture taking place there refers to the Christian Church. Darby and Scofield taught a secret rapture for the Christians before the tribulation, followed by a rapture of the newly converted Jewish believers at the end of the tribulation. But we do not agree on this point. We believe contrary to Darby and Scofield and according to the disciples of the Apostles that these events are the same event and not two different ones.

Another point was that Darby and Scofield didn't differentiate between the Tribulation and the Wrath, though we can find ample differences in the Scriptures between them. Darby and Scofield claimed that the rapture of the Church must take place before the Tribulation, because God has promised to spare us from His Wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 expresses that very thought. "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." In the paragraphs that follow, we will show how Scripture does indeed separate the literal Tribulation period from the literal Wrath of God period. God will allow the true believers to be troubled with tribulation, but will spare them from His wrath.

Let's look at another section of scripture where Apostle Paul talks about the rapture event.    I Corinthians 15:51. "Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (the same terminology used in 1 Thessalonians 4), but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the tinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and they dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  It sounds again just like as if he is describing  the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4. We see the trumpet again like we saw in Matthew 24, but this time we are given more information, it's the last trump or trumpet.

Where else do we see trumps or trumpets in Bible prophecy? The most obvious place is in Revelation 8-10. I will call these seven trumpets, the Trumpets of Tribulation to distinguish them from another event that comes shortly afterwards. Let's read Revelation 8:2 and 6. "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." What follows are traditionally understood to be the first plagues of the tribulation period.

Revelation 8:7 "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and a third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up." Could that be the result of a nuclear explosion?

Revelation 8:8-9 "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed." Could that be talking about a satellite or a great asteroid or from outer space landing in the ocean?

Revelation 8:10-11 "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." Again we don't know for sure what this is talking about. But a third part of the water system of the world is contaminated and many die. We see throughout the first trumpets that they are bringing not a total destruction, but "a third part."

If we go back to Revelation 7:3 we find that before God allows the trumpets to be blown, He first seals the servants of God in their foreheads. We read, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." Just like God protected the children of Israel in Egypt when he poured out His judgments upon Egypt, God is in a similar fashion protecting His children while punishing the wicked.

In Revelation chapter nine the fifth and sixth angels blow their trumpets bringing in more horrendous judgments including the death of what seems like one third of mankind. Let's read Revelation 9:18. "By these three was the third part of men killed, by fire, and by smoke, and by brimstone, which issued out of their mouths." The prophet may be describing some modern military devices used at times of war. However, it is the spiritual power of the enemy that brings about the death of one-third of humanity. The "angels" that are released to facilitate the event were in fact fallen angels who had been bound in the Euphrates River for thousands of years and were released specifically to bring about that destruction.

So far we have looked briefly at the first six trumpets of the tribulation period. Chapter ten brings us to the seventh trumpet, the last trumpet. Didn't Apostle Paul explain that the rapture as described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 would take place at the last trump or trumpet? Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 both mentioned a trumpet sounding also as the angels went forth to gather together the elect. Will the seventh trumpet of tribulation found in Revelation 10 be the rapture event? Let's take a look.

Revelation 10:1-4 "Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”

Wow, did you hear that? That spiritual being or mighty angel, maybe an archangel, gave a great shout. I wonder if that's the same shout that we saw in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (or trumpet) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Are we seeing in Revelation 10 the archangel shouting as the rapture event begins? Let's continue reading.

Revelation 10:5-7 "Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, That there should be time no longer. But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Here it says that the "mystery of God shall be finished." Didn't Apostle Paul use that same phrase when talking about the rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51? Let's read it. "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." Could the mystery of God in Revelation 10:7, which is the last trump or trumpet of tribulation and is introduced by a mighty angel, possibly an archangel, with a great loud shout, could it be the rapture event talked about elsewhere with very similar phraseology?

We can't say for sure because John was not allowed to write down what the seven thunders thundered. It remains a mystery. But if we, like the disciple in Berea who were more noble than those in Thessalonica, search the scriptures daily, maybe we can find out whether these things are so.

In Revelation 11:15-18 we also see the seventh angel sounding. Let's look at the verses. "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,

The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

What's interesting here is that again the seventh trumpet is not a judgment like the others, but seems to be proclaiming some important spiritual event. Christ's reign has begun. Could the seventh trumpet, the last trump, be the rapture event that both Jesus and Apostle Paul anticipated?

In Revelation 15:18 we see that following the seventh trumpet begins the Wrath of God. The nations are angry because of that. Maybe they are angry because the rapture has taken place and they know it's time for them to be judged and they know what's coming. But notice that in the chronology we have followed the seven Trumpets of Tribulation are not part of the Wrath of God. They bring usually a one-third destruction. The seventh trump which is some kind of a mystery and a proclamation may very well be the rapture event.In the next section we will look at the specifics of the Wrath of God.

To go back to part one click link. To go to Part 3.